Anyone heard of "Siemens S7-1515 SP PC Open Controller" ?

Just stumpled accross some tidbits of information about a new IPC in the shape of ET200SP/S7-1212SP.
It is called S7-1515 SP PC Open Controller.
Anyone heard about this already ?

IPC in ET200SP CPU Format.
ET200SP Modules can be connected directly.
DVI, 3x USB, Ethernet/Profinet, SD Slot, CF Slot (behind the cover on the right ?).
The CF card can only be accessed by the Open Controller software (for security reasons ?).
The Open Controller is based on TIA and has the samefunctionality as S7-1500 (so a replacement for WinAC RTX which is based on STEP7 v5.5 is on the way).

What I like is that the hardware it is based on ET200SP and not S7-1500/ET200MP. We are using ET200S for everything today and we prefer to migrate to a similar hardware platform rather than going back to the dense modules like on S7-300/S7-1500.

What I would like to know more about:
What is the Performance hat and what Microprocessor is inside ?
Which OS ?
When is it going to be released ?
What is it going to cost ?
Someone seen it already, maybe on a fair somewhere ?

I found some additional info in TIA SP1 Relase notes

Support of the new SIMATIC Open Controller
The CPU 1515SP PC is a robust, PC-based system that makes use of the new S7-1500 Software Controller. The CPU implements the function of a classical S7-1500 controller in ET 200SP design on a PC with Windows. Additional HMI functionality is provided by the CPU 1515SP PC + HMI with pre-installed WinCC Runtime Advanced. This enables both control and visualization functions in one unit (planned 01/2015).

There are also the 2 "classic" modules already available that i guess you already know of. Wonder when the F versions come?

CPU 1510SP-1PN, CPU 1512SP-1PN, and CPU 1515SP PC
Header modules with integrated controller and PROFINET connection are available for the
SIMATIC ET 200SP. With the three integrated Ethernet ports, the connection systems can
be flexibly selected by means of bus adapters. These CPUs feature the same functionalities
as the CPU 1511 and CPU 1513, such as integrated trace function, Web server and fully
symbolic programming. Connection to a higher-level CPU can be made in exactly the same
way thanks to the I-Device functionality. A PC system is available additionally in the form
of the CPU 1515SP PC.

PC based? No thank you - give me a real PLC anyday.

I am slowly warming up to the idea of switching over to TIA.
If we do, it will possibly be the 1512SP-1PN for the lower end applications, and possibly the 1515SP PC for the higher end applications.

The HDMI port makes me wonder if instead of a regular HMI panel, would it be better to have a HMI RT and a 23" full-HD touchscreen ? I can see how it would be better for the endcustomer, and better for me as I dont have to support 2 types of HMIs (small panels and big PC RT screens).

Just got an approximate price from another forum.
1800 € list price. That is including the "open controller" PLC software.
The CPU will be an AMD G-Series T40 E, 1.0 GHz. Based on that I am guessing it will be as performant as the S7-mEC/EC31, which means it will blow any other regular PLC (incl. Siemens 319) out of the water.

All in all, this one could entice me to start migrating to TIA.

Have you gotten any experiences with the "Open" controller?

I have been at a presentation at Siemens for some more in-depth information.
It looks very very interesting indeed.
If it was not for the troubles with the TIA programming software we would probably have taken the plunge already.
At the moment we are hesitant, because of TIA, but I think that within the next year we will start with a real project and then with the S7-1515PC as the controller.

When have you tried TIA last time? What were biggest reasons for not using it?

I feel that TIA V13 SP1 is good enough and actually have preference for it nowdays (small one though).

I haven't had a enough of a chance to play with one to do any real benchmarking, but the official tech specs say that it is about on par with a 1516 in performance & memory. They've also released a 1507S which can be installed on some of the other Siemens IPCs. The official tech specs for that say it is like a 1518 in memory/performance (when run on an i7), which would blow a 319 out of the water, as Jesper said above.

The processor it has included is a pretty low end one and it doesn't have much in the way of RAM or storage, at least in comparison to what people expect from modern PC's. I definitely wouldn't recommend running Portal from it, or much extra software. It seems like it could be a good platform if you want your PLC and HMI running in the same place, with just the external screen. To me, the cool bit is the ODK (Open Development Kit), which allows you to include C++ programs that can be called from the PLC.

Compared to the S7-mEC that came before the S7-1515SP PC, they have similarly performant CPUs (S7-mEC: Intel Core Duo 1.2 GHz, S7-1515SP PC: AMD T40 1GHz), but more RAM (S7-mEC: 1GB, S7-1515SP PC: 2GB).
And since the S7-mEC was very very powerful, I am optimistic that on the PLC-side the S7-1515SP is actually more performant than what Siemens says officially.

Now, I have been working with the S7-1515SP Open Controller for some time, and have some real-world experience with the thing.
In case someone is interested:

The 1515SP itself seems to be quite rugged and solid. It is not plastic but metal (magnesium I think). When running it gets lukewarm to the touch.

The PLC part is very powerful. I estimate it to be at least as powerful as a 317, but probably more. I have a migrated 315 program that was running at ~5 ms which runs at 1 ms in the 1515SP. Since 1 ms is the lowest value that can be reported, it might actually be less.

The Windows part is a bit lame, which should be expected given the specs. It runs the WinCC RT HMI sort of OK. But there is a tiny delay when switching screens. Not a dealbreaker, but a sign that the Windows part doesnt have much oompf. Dont expect to be able to run some other demanding software next to the HMI software.
Having to turn the EWF filter on and off gets tiresome.

As for the TIA software, there are a lot of good things, and quite a few bad things.
I am finding working with TIA part satisfying, part frustrating, which is a topic for another discussion.

My only big worry at the moment is that to be online requires that you have a relatively performant connection. TIA seems to send a lot more data back and forth than STEP7 Classic. The entire online concept is quite different to STEP7 Classic.
My concern is that even if it works OK to be online when you are next to the PLC, what if you have a slow VPN connection to a distant site ? This is something we are using extensively. If this does not work good enough, it will be a big disadvantage.

If someone else have experience with the 1515SP Open Controller, I would like to hear.

I just found that there is a CPU parameter called "enable minimum cycle time for cyclic OBs", which is enabled per default, and is set to 1 ms.
Havent tried to turn it off, but it explains why the cycle time seems to be constantly 1 ms.
If I have the time I will try to throw a much more demanding program at it and see how it goes.

JesperMP said:

The 1515SP itself seems to be quite rugged and solid. It is not plastic but metal (magnesium I think). When running it gets lukewarm to the touch.

Click to expand...

It has the same feel as the PG, which I think is magnesium, so I agree.

JesperMP said:

The PLC part is very powerful. I estimate it to be at least as powerful as a 317, but probably more. I have a migrated 315 program that was running at ~5 ms which runs at 1 ms in the 1515SP. Since 1 ms is the lowest value that can be reported, it might actually be less.

Click to expand...

When I checked the official tech specs of the Open Controller, it had similar numbers to the 1516, which supposedly lines up with the 317.

If you read the system time on the "hard" 1500s, I seem to recall that being a good bit more accurate than just milliseconds. I've used that before to track cycle times a bit closer. Not sure if Soft version has same accuracy.

JesperMP said:

The Windows part is a bit lame, which should be expected given the specs. It runs the WinCC RT HMI sort of OK. But there is a tiny delay when switching screens. Not a dealbreaker, but a sign that the Windows part doesnt have much oompf. Dont expect to be able to run some other demanding software next to the HMI software.

Click to expand...

I looked up some benchmarks for the CPU (Dual-Core 1 GHz, AMD G Series APU T40E), and it isn't too impressive. I think one core is reserved for the PLC, one for Windows. Slightly faster than the older generation nanobox from Siemens (227D), if I recall, but slower than the current generation (227E). Way slower than the Microboxes.

I'd consider it a performant PLC that can do a little bit of PC stuff, on the side. It is great that you can put IO modules in rack. Definitely isn't a powerhouse, and I think it only comes in Windows embedded, which has its own limitations.

JesperMP said:

Having to turn the EWF filter on and off gets tiresome.

Click to expand...

Agree on EWF. It is a theoretically convenient Windows feature, but it gets in the way as much as it helps.

JesperMP said:

My only big worry at the moment is that to be online requires that you have a relatively performant connection. TIA seems to send a lot more data back and forth than STEP7 Classic. The entire online concept is quite different to STEP7 Classic.
My concern is that even if it works OK to be online when you are next to the PLC, what if you have a slow VPN connection to a distant site ? This is something we are using extensively. If this does not work good enough, it will be a big disadvantage.

Click to expand...

What I usually do for remote programming is install a PC at the remote system with the software, and correct project. Then, when oremote support is needed, I can remote into the PC, use the software local at the machine, and do what needs to be done. Minimal worries if the VPN connection is slow or drops out, as any downloads will still be completed locally. This also partially simplifies managing projects. The local copy is pretty much always the most recent.

Interesting.. Is the price still around that 1800 euro?

I can't give any opinion on the controller obviously but wanted to share the experience about this part:

JesperMP said:

As for the TIA software, there are a lot of good things, and quite a few bad things.
I am finding working with TIA part satisfying, part frustrating, which is a topic for another discussion.

My only big worry at the moment is that to be online requires that you have a relatively performant connection. TIA seems to send a lot more data back and forth than STEP7 Classic. The entire online concept is quite different to STEP7 Classic.
My concern is that even if it works OK to be online when you are next to the PLC, what if you have a slow VPN connection to a distant site ? This is something we are using extensively. If this does not work good enough, it will be a big disadvantage.

Click to expand...

It is funny, because in the last few weeks I have been at Step7 after a long time of TIA and I keep finding myself banging my head to the table.. Why can't I just copy this there, why are arrays lame.. Importing to a panel... Oh, god...

I know it is still not great software.. The response time is...
But actual engeneering time is I believe shortend, it has many more very useful features and when you get used to it, it really speeds things up (you just have to have the nerves to wait ).

We have been working with it since 10.5
And most of out stations are on gprs-VPN. So a slow and unstable connection. So, after many thousends of connecting to them, I can assure you - it is slow to establish, slow to start monitoring (not even in the same boat as step7), but very stable and reliable. (especially if you don't overdoo it with many monitoring at once)

We do however increase the communication % if a process allowes it...

So, I don't think you should have many concerns about it..